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Moving Plum Trees...

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default Moving Plum Trees...

Post by Sparhawk on 6th December 2010, 12:49 pm

A couple of weeks ago our local council granted more planning permission for another housing development on "unused land" near us Rolling Eyes (money talks of course...) won't get into the ranty thing here...

The patch contains some plum trees with the nicest tasting plums I have ever found, & I would love to move some for conservation purposes of course. Underneath the trees are some new smaller ones that are growing from the fruit that has fallen. Now of course is a good time of year to try to move things like this, & I wondered a couple of things.

I realise the correct protocol is to ask permission first, whether there will be anyone around to answer is another question, but I will make sure I ask ...

1. Will it be better to try to get a cutting or the newly growing young trees?
(Thinking about breading true...)
2. How easy would it be to take cuttings & what is the best way/time to do it?
3. Are plums self fertile or will I need 2 or 3?

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"the luxuries of civilisation satisfy only those wants which they themselves create..."
The Worst Journey In The World - Apsley Cherry-Garrard (1922)

"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar, Galactica,
leads a ragtag, fugitive fleet, on a lonely quest—for a shining planet known as Earth."
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Sparhawk
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default Re: Moving Plum Trees...

Post by kramer on 6th December 2010, 3:05 pm

I love plum trees. I hope you manage to save some.

I think it depends on the type of plum tree it is. European derived plums are self pollinating so if its one of those types then you wouldn't need to pollinate.

Personally I'd dig one of the little trees up with a good root ball and move it as taking a cutting sounds complicated when I've looked into it. My parents have a Green Gage tree in their garden, which is also self pollinating so I dug up a rooted off shoot and I now have a happy little Green Gage of my own.

Good luck with it.
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default Re: Moving Plum Trees...

Post by zoe on 6th December 2010, 3:46 pm

What type of plum is it? Describe!

Have you considered that the small trees are actually suckers on the roots of the tree. If they are (and I would say most likely) you need to look at the original tree and see if it is grafted. If its grafted the base roots will not be the wonderful plum you like but a tough more native type.

You could make a graft from a cutting of the top tree and graft it onto a sucker growth.

And try cuttings from water shoots with rooting hormone. Plums seem to like a lime rich soil.

Something might give the result required.

zoe
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default Re: Moving Plum Trees...

Post by Sparhawk on 6th December 2010, 3:56 pm

[quote="Zoe"]What type of plum is it? Describe! [quote]

Sort of round & red like a cherry only a bit bigger, sorry can't describe better than that...

I don't think they are grafted either I think they have been there too long for that...

................................................................................................................................
"the luxuries of civilisation satisfy only those wants which they themselves create..."
The Worst Journey In The World - Apsley Cherry-Garrard (1922)

"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar, Galactica,
leads a ragtag, fugitive fleet, on a lonely quest—for a shining planet known as Earth."
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Sparhawk
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default Re: Moving Plum Trees...

Post by Zoe on 6th December 2010, 4:03 pm

sparhawk wrote:

I don't think they are grafted either I think they have been there too long for that...

Before medieval times?

Zoe
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default Re: Moving Plum Trees...

Post by Zoe on 6th December 2010, 5:41 pm


An extract from the first edition of "A New Orchard and Garden", which included "The Country Housewifes Garden" appeared in 1618; many further editions appeared over the period to 1695.



Chap. 10.
Of Grafting.


Of Grauing or Caruing.
Grafting What. Now are we come to the most curious point of our faculty: curious in conceit, but indeede as plaine and easie as the rest, when it is plainely shewne, which we commonly call Graffing, or (after some) Grafting. I cannot Etymologize, nor shew the originall of the Word, except it come of Grauing and Caruing. A Graffe. But the thing or matter is: The reforming of the fruite of one tree with the fruit of another, by an artificiall transplacing, or transposing of a twigge, bud or leafe, called a Graft) taken from one tree of the same, or some other kind, and placed or put to, or into another tree in one time and manner.


Of this there be diuers kinds, but three or foure now especially in vse: to wit, Grafting, incising, packing on, grafting in the scutchion, or inoculating: whereof the chiefe and most vsuall, is called grafting (by the generall name, Catahexocen) for it is the most knowne, surest, readiest, and plainest way to haue store of good fruit.

Graft how. It is thus wrought: You must with a fine, thin, strong and sharpe Saw, made and armed for that purpose, cut off a foot aboue the ground, or thereabouts, in a plaine without a knot, or as neere as you can without a knot (for some Stocks will be knotty) your Stocke, set, or plant, being surely stayed with your foot and legge, or otherwise straight ouerthwart (for the Stocke may be crooked) and then plaine his wound smoothly with a sharpe knife: that done, cleaue him cleanly in the middle with a cleauer, and a knocke or mall, and with a wedge of wood, Iron or Bone, two handfull long at least, put into the middle of that clift, with the same knocke, make the wound gape a straw bredth wide, into which you must put your Graffes.

A Graft what. The graft is a top twig taken from some other Tree (for it is folly to put a graffe into his owne Stocke) beneath the vppermost (and sometime in need the second) knot, and with a sharpe knife fitted in the knot (and some time out of the knot when need is) with shoulders an ynch downeward, and so put into the stocke with some thrusting (but not straining) barke to barke inward.



Eyes. Let your graffe haue three or foure eyes, for readinesse to put forth, and giue issue to the sap. It is not amisse to cut off the top of your graffe, and leaue it but fiue or sixe inches long, because commonly you shall see the tops of long graffes die. The reason is this. The sap in graffing receiues a rebuke, and cannot worke so strongly presently, and your graffes receiue not sap so readily, as the naturall branches. When your graffes are cleanely and closely put in, and your wedge puld out nimbly, for feare of putting your graffes out of frame, take well tempered morter, soundly wrought with chaffe or horse dung (for the dung of cattell will grow hard, and straine your graffes) the quantity of a Gooses egge, and diuide it iust, and therewithall, couer your stocke, laying the one halfe on the one side and the other halfe on the other side of your graffes (for thrusting against your graffes) you moue them, and let both your hands thrust at once, and alike, and let your clay be tender, to yeeld easily; and all, lest you moue your graffes. Some vse to couer the clift of the Stocke, vnder the clay with a piece of barke or leafe, some with a sear-cloth of waxe and butter, which as they be not much needfull, so they hurt not, vnlesse that by being busie about them, you moue your graffes from their places. They vse also mosse tyed on aboue the clay with some bryer, wicker, or other bands. These profit nothing.



Generall rule. They all put the graffes in danger, with pulling and thrusting: for I hold this generall rule in graffing and planting: if your stocke and graffes take, and thriue (for some will take and not thriue, being tainted by some meanes in the planting or graffing) they will (without doubt) recouer their wounds safely and shortly.



Time of graffing. The best time of graffing from the time of remouing your stocke is the next Spring, for that saues a second wound, and a second repulse of sap, if your stocke be of sufficient bignesse to take a graffe from as big as your thumbe, to as big as an arme of a man. You may graffe lesse (which I like) and bigger, which I like not so well. The best time of the yeere is in the last part of February, or in March, or beginning of Aprill, when the Sunne with his heat begins to make the sap stirre more rankely, about the change of Moone before you see any great apparancy of leafe or flowers but onely knots and buds, and before they be proud, though it be sooner. Cheries, Peares, Apricocks, Quinces, and Plummes would be gathered and grafted sooner.



Gathering graffes. The graffes may be gathered sooner in February, or any time within a moneth, or two before you graffe or vpon the same day (which I commend) If you get them any time before, for I haue knowne graffes gathered in December, and doe well, take heed of drought. I haue my selfe taken a burknot of a tree, & the same day when he was laid in the earth about mid February, gathered grafts and put in him, and one of those graffes bore the third yeere after, and the fourth plentifully. Graffes of old trees. Graffes of old trees would be gathered sooner then of young trees, for they sooner breake and bud. If you keepe graffes in the earth, moisture with the heat of the Sun will make them sprout as fast, as if they were growing on the tree. And therefore seeing keeping is dangerous, the surest way (as I iudge) is to take them within a weeke of the time of your grafting.



The grafts would be taken not of the proudest twigs, for it may be your stocke is not answerable in strength. Where taken. And therefore say I, the grafts brought from South to vs in the North although they take and thriue (which is somewhat doubtfull, by reason of the difference of the Clime and carriage) yet shall they in time fashion themselues to our cold Northerne soile, in growth, taste &c.



Nor of the poorest, for want of strength may make them vnready to receiue sap (and who can tell but a poore graft is tainted) nor on the outside of your tree, for there should your tree spread but in the middest; for there you may be sure your Tree is no whit hindered in his growth or forme. He will stil recouer inward, more then you would wish. Emmits. If your clay clift in Summer with drought, looke well in the Chinkes for Emmits and Earewigs, for they are cunning and close theeues about grafts you shall finde them stirring in the morning and euening, and the rather in the moist weather. I haue had many young buds of Graffes, euen in the flourishing, eaten with Ants. Let this suffice for graffing, which is in the faculty counted the chiefe secret, and because it is most vsuall it is best knowne.
Graffes are not to be disliked for growth, till they wither, pine, and die. Vsually before Midsummer they breake, if they liue. Some (but few) keeping proud and greene, will not put till the second yeere, so is it to be thought of sets.
The first shew of putting is no sure signe of growth, it is but the sap the graffe brought with him from his tree.
So soone as you see the graft put for growth, take away the clay, for then doth neither the stocke nor the graffe need it (put a little fresh well tempered clay in the hole of the stocke) for the clay is now tender, and rather keepes moistture then drought.
The other waies of changing the naturall fruit of Trees, are more curious then profitable, and therefore I mind not to bestow much labour or time about them, onely I shall make knowne what I haue proued, and what I doe thinke.

Incising. And first of incising, which is the cutting of the backe of the boale, a rine or branch of a tree at some bending or knee, shoulderwise with two gashes, onely with a sharpe knife to the wood: then take a wedge, the bignes of your graffe sharpe ended, flat on the one side, agreeing with the tree, and round on the other side, and with that being thrust in, raise your barke, then put in your graffe, fashioned like your wedge iust: and lastly couer your wound, and fast it vp, and take heed of straining. A great stocke. This will grow but to small purpose, for it is weake hold, and lightly it will be vnder growth. Thus may you graft betwixt the barke and the tree of a great stocke that will not easily be clifted: But I haue tryed a better way for great trees, viz First, cut him off straight, and cleanse him with your knife, then cleaue him into foure quarters, equally with a strong cleauer: then take for euery Clift two or three small (but hard) wedges iust of the bignesse of your grafts, and with those Wedges driuen in with an hammer open the foure clifts so wide (but no wider) that they may take your foure graffes, with thrusting not with straining: and lastly couer and clay it closely, and this is a sure and good way of grafting: or thus, clift your stocke by his edges twice or thrice with your cleauer, and open him with your wedge in euery clift one by one, and put in your grafts, and then couer them. This may doe well.

Packing thus. Packing on is, when you cut aslope a twig of the same bignesse with your graft, either in or besides the knot, two inches long, and make your graft agree iumpe with the Cyon, and gash your graft and your Cyon in the middest of the wound, length-way, a straw breadth deepe, and thrust the one into the other, wound to wound, sap to sap, barke to barke, then tie them close and clay them. This may doe well. The fairest graft I haue in my little Orchard, which I haue planted, is thus packt on, and the branch whereon I put him, is in his plentifull roote.
To be short in this point, cut your graft in any sort or fashion, two inches long, and ioyne him cleanly and close to any other sprig of any tree in the latter end of the time of grafting, when sap is somewhat rife, and in all probability they will close and thriue: thus

(diagram of cuts won't copy over...sorry!)
The Sprig. The graft. The twig. The graft.

Or any other fashion you thinke good.

Inoculating. Inoculating is an eye or bud, taken barke and all from one tree, and placed in the roome of another eie or bud of another, cut both of one compasse, and there bound. This must be done in Summer, when the sap is proud.

Much like vnto this is that, they call grafting in the scutchion, they differ thus: That here you must take an eie with his leafe, or (in mine opinion) a bud with his leaues. Graffing in the Scutchion. (Note that an eie is for a Cyon, a bud is for flowers and fruit,) and place them on another tree, in a plaine (for so they teach) the place or barke where you must set it, must be thus cut H with a sharpe knife, and the barke raised with a wedge, and then the eie or budde put in and so bound vp. I cannot denie but such may grow. And your bud if he take will flowre and beare fruit that yeere: as some grafts & sets also, being set for bloomes. If these two kinds thriue, they reforme but a spray, and an vndergrowth. Thus you may place Roses on Thornes, and Cherries on Apples, and such like. Many write much more of grafting, but to small purpose. Whom we leaue to themselues, & their followers; & ending this secret we come in the next Chapter to a point of knowledge most requisite in an Arborist, as well for all other woods as for an Orchard.

Zoe
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default Re: Moving Plum Trees...

Post by Sparhawk on 2nd January 2011, 5:33 pm

Thanks for posting that Zoe, I may have to try that next...

But,

This afternoon, I took a short walk to the trees & in a loudish voice asked if I could liberate 2 of the smaller bushletts, nobody said that I couldn't, so dug 2 of them, unfortunately not much root came with them but I have replanted them in a couple of large planters & hopefully they are resiliant enough so that I can nurse at least one into life this year, if its both, all the better...

Nothing has happened yet... Laughing

................................................................................................................................
"the luxuries of civilisation satisfy only those wants which they themselves create..."
The Worst Journey In The World - Apsley Cherry-Garrard (1922)

"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar, Galactica,
leads a ragtag, fugitive fleet, on a lonely quest—for a shining planet known as Earth."
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