A Homemade Life
Welcome to Homemade Life.

To take full advantage of everything offered by our forum, please log in if you are already a member or join our community if not ....

Chilli-head
Who is online?
In total there are 4 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 4 Guests

None

Most users ever online was 62 on 10th April 2015, 8:24 am
Latest topics
» What are you harvesting today?
by Ploshkin 20th July 2017, 10:09 pm

» Who knows what the weather will bring on the plot in July ?
by Dandelion 20th July 2017, 7:32 pm

» More mead ...
by Chilli-head 19th July 2017, 8:25 pm

» Quilting
by Chilli-head 18th July 2017, 11:58 am

» The Polytunnel
by Chilli-head 14th July 2017, 10:34 pm

» Host an Image wants a password
by Chilli-head 14th July 2017, 2:14 pm

» Drawings
by Dandelion 13th July 2017, 10:09 pm

» Insect hotel
by FloBear 2nd July 2017, 10:15 pm

» Heat in the June garden
by Ploshkin 30th June 2017, 10:56 pm

» No-dig gardening & weed control
by FloBear 29th June 2017, 9:10 am

» What are you preserving today?
by FloBear 27th June 2017, 8:19 pm

» Hugelkultur
by Chilli-head 26th June 2017, 8:08 pm

» What are you reading now?
by Dandelion 18th June 2017, 7:41 pm

» Bees Behaving Badly
by Dandelion 2nd June 2017, 5:52 pm

» Compost - question and answer thread
by FloBear 1st June 2017, 9:40 am

» The May garden - catch up time !
by Dandelion 30th May 2017, 11:18 pm

» What have I done in the workshop today?
by Chilli-head 30th May 2017, 4:01 pm

» This year's challenge
by Chilli-head 30th May 2017, 3:51 pm

» National Mills weekend
by Chilli-head 9th May 2017, 10:33 am

» April - busiest month of the gardeners year ?
by freebird 29th April 2017, 5:34 pm

Statistics
We have 630 registered users
The newest registered user is BrendaP

Our users have posted a total of 44450 messages in 2310 subjects
HML on FaceBook
RSS feeds



Donate to our Charity
The Homemade life supports Kiva - microloans for people in developing countries working to change their lives.  These loans are repaid to our KIVA account, so your donation is used many times to help different people - literally the gift that keeps on giving..

Staggering thought for the day

View previous topic View next topic Go down

default Staggering thought for the day

Post by Chilli-head on 29th August 2012, 6:52 pm

According to Wikipedia:


The Haber process is important today because the fertilizer generated from ammonia is responsible for sustaining one-third of the Earth's population. It is estimated that half of the protein within human beings is made of nitrogen that was originally fixed by this process

Now, it only has a BBC citation for that last snippet, but what a statistic. 50% of human protein from ammonia derived fertilisers, made using fossil fuel hydrogen. Where is the room for debate over whether a population of 9bn will be sustainable ?
avatar
Chilli-head
Admin and Boss man

Posts : 2297
Join date : 2010-02-23
Location : Bedfordshire

Back to top Go down

default Re: Staggering thought for the day

Post by Dandelion on 30th August 2012, 1:31 pm

CH - can you put into a short snappy sentence what the Haber process is (for us non-scientists)?

................................................................................................................................
The richer we have become materially, the poorer we have become morally and spiritually. We have learned to fly in the air like birds and swim in the sea like fish, but we have not learned the simple art of living together as brothers and sisters.

-Martin Luther King, Jr.
avatar
Dandelion
Admin

Posts : 4470
Join date : 2010-01-17
Age : 60
Location : Ledbury, Herefordshire

Back to top Go down

default Re: Staggering thought for the day

Post by Chilli-head on 30th August 2012, 2:16 pm

For those who didn't study chemistry at "A" level, or paid even less attention than I did Embarassed

It is a process to produce ammonia (NH3) by combining nitrogen and hydrogen.

Nitrogen comes from air, but it is not very reactive. The process uses a catalyst to cause it to react with hydrogen. The major source of the hydrogen is from methane, natural gas.

The significance of this is that the ammonia made by the Haber process is reactive enough to produce other nitrogen compounds. It is the first step in producing nitrate fertilisers.
avatar
Chilli-head
Admin and Boss man

Posts : 2297
Join date : 2010-02-23
Location : Bedfordshire

Back to top Go down

default Re: Staggering thought for the day

Post by Dandelion on 30th August 2012, 10:49 pm

Thanks, that's really helpful.

................................................................................................................................
The richer we have become materially, the poorer we have become morally and spiritually. We have learned to fly in the air like birds and swim in the sea like fish, but we have not learned the simple art of living together as brothers and sisters.

-Martin Luther King, Jr.
avatar
Dandelion
Admin

Posts : 4470
Join date : 2010-01-17
Age : 60
Location : Ledbury, Herefordshire

Back to top Go down

default Re: Staggering thought for the day

Post by Hairyloon on 29th October 2012, 11:48 am

I had a thought about the Haber process.
The basic problem is that it requires a lot of pressure and takes a lot of energy (partly to create the pressure).

Consider the ocean. There is plenty of energy out there free for the taking (wind, wave, PV), and plenty of room to be away from the NIMBY's.
And also, there is no shortage of pressure, all you need to do is go down: you would not need a strong pressure vessel because the forces would be in equilibrium.

Hydrogen can be produced at depth by hydrolysis, Nitrogen would have to be pumped down, but that is not difficult.

The problem I am stumped on is that it is a hot process, and the deep ocean is cold, so you would need a lot of insulation, and insulation is usually pretty buoyant...
avatar
Hairyloon

Posts : 643
Join date : 2009-12-09
Location : UK

Back to top Go down

default Re: Staggering thought for the day

Post by Mike on 1st November 2012, 1:38 pm

Separate those concepts. Yes, presumably possible to create giant floating factories using wind and/or wave action for the power source to power the Haber process. We can't use such facilities as power sources connected to the grid (too far out) but for making on site use of the energy, yes.

But no reason/purpose to use the depths for the pressure. Saves nothing (think about it a little). In any case it is only the net losses in the compression/expansion cycle that take energy.

However -- the Haber process is described in terms of its main use now. Wasn't developed to produce nitrates for fertilizer but nitrates to make explosives so Germany would be able to wage war even blockaded from sources of nitrates. Made WWI possible.

................................................................................................................................
There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality of the grave.
avatar
Mike

Posts : 485
Join date : 2009-11-08
Age : 72
Location : Step by Step Farm, Berkshire Mtns, Massachusetts, USA

Back to top Go down

default Re: Staggering thought for the day

Post by Hairyloon on 1st November 2012, 1:55 pm

Mike wrote:Separate those concepts. Yes, presumably possible to create giant floating factories using wind and/or wave action for the power source to power the Haber process. We can't use such facilities as power sources connected to the grid (too far out) but for making on site use of the energy, yes.
That was the main thrust of the idea.

But no reason/purpose to use the depths for the pressure. Saves nothing (think about it a little).
If nothing else, it saves building a pressure vessel, and I'm missing how you pump it to pressure without energy.
avatar
Hairyloon

Posts : 643
Join date : 2009-12-09
Location : UK

Back to top Go down

default Re: Staggering thought for the day

Post by Chilli-head on 1st November 2012, 2:05 pm

Ahh yes. I should add that I started this thread because I find the amazing claim - 50 % of the nitrogen in human protein having being fixed by the Haber process - provides an interesting insight into how sustainable the human population is, or rather isn't.

I didn't mean in any way to glorify the work of Fritz Haber, who contributed to both explosive production and poison gas development. It is perhaps ironic, though that while is it is not uncommon for harm to come by accident from work done with good intentions, Haber acheived the rather less common reverse - did something to the good whilst intending harm.
avatar
Chilli-head
Admin and Boss man

Posts : 2297
Join date : 2010-02-23
Location : Bedfordshire

Back to top Go down

default Re: Staggering thought for the day

Post by Hairyloon on 3rd November 2012, 7:50 pm

Chilli-head wrote:Ahh yes. I should add that I started this thread because I find the amazing claim - 50 % of the nitrogen in human protein having being fixed by the Haber process - provides an interesting insight into how sustainable the human population is, or rather isn't.
Damn. I was planning to start up making explosives. :?

The population is entirely sustainable, we just need to shift all the Haber plants onto sustainable energy sources.
avatar
Hairyloon

Posts : 643
Join date : 2009-12-09
Location : UK

Back to top Go down

default Re: Staggering thought for the day

Post by Chilli-head on 5th November 2012, 5:15 pm

Hairyloon wrote:
Damn. I was planning to start up making explosives. :?

Be very careful if you start playing with nitrates and all that Glycerol you have. Very tricky business, that Shocked
avatar
Chilli-head
Admin and Boss man

Posts : 2297
Join date : 2010-02-23
Location : Bedfordshire

Back to top Go down

default Re: Staggering thought for the day

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum